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TLV

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Member Since: 5/2006  Last Seen: 6/18/2006

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Letter to Iranian President from an Israeli; where is home?

Thu May 11, 2006 2:09 AM EDT
world-news, news, iran, israel, middle-east, world, letter
By TLV
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Dear Mr. Mahmood Ahmadi-Najad, President of the Islamic Republic of Iran, I am writing in response to your call for Jews in Israel to go back to their countries of origin. The purpose of this letter is to explain to you why what you are saying is dangerous, irresponsible, and above all impossible.

I want to ask you, Mr. President, who are the Jews that you are sending "home"? are you inviting two and half million Israeli Jews (nearly half the Jews here) whose families emigrated from Iraq, Morocco, Egypt, Syria and other Arab countries, to come back "home"? Please don't blame me, Mr. President, for questioning the type of reception they would receive upon arrival. Is it possible, Mr. Ahmadi-Najad, that you simply miss Moshe Katzav, Israel's President, and Dan Halutz, the IDF chief of staff, whose families emigrated from Iran?

Or maybe you are talking about the other half of the Jews in Israel, whose families fled Europe, like mine? Well then, let me tell you this Mr. President: As a Jew and Israeli, Israel is home and there is no other. I grew up in Israel, my father was born in Israel, my grandfather was born in Israel, and my grandfather's grandfather was born in Israel. Should we go and reclaim the ranch we had in Austria in 1840?

Perhaps Mr. President, you are referring to my mother's family? Her parents were not fortunate enough to be born in Israel. My mother's mother was born in Poland and my mother's father was born in Russia. Their families had been living in Poland and Russia, respectively, for generations. To them their respective countries were home; after all they thought (or hoped), 'we are regular citizens who happen to adhere to the Jewish faith.'

Unfortunately to my grandparents, their fellow countrymen did not hold the same opinion. After years of pogroms and persecution, finally the European Jews were dealt the final blow. I know, Mr. President, that you doubt that the holocaust really happened, but sadly to my grandparents it was very real; their entire families were wiped out along with 40% of the world's Jews. A little girl at the time, my grandmother saw her sisters and mother shot in the head by Polish soldiers. My grandfather had a wife and three children in Russia. He fought in WW2 in the Red Army to save his "home". When he came "home" he discovered that his wife and kids were slaughtered in German concentration camps. To add insult to injury, this 20th century Job discovered that a Christian Russian family was now living in his house. When he attempted to reclaim it, they aimed a shotgun at the discharged war veteran.

After these events, my grandfather found the strength to make Alia to Israel, where he started a new family. It was not easy to start all over again after losing his family and all that he owned. He knew that his children and grandchildren would one day have to serve in the military and fight for their country, but he was also certain that this was well worth the blood, sweat, and tears. After two thousand years in exile, a Jew was once again living in HIS home.

In his home, my grandfather who emerged from the ashes of WWII and the holocaust, together with other brave grandfathers and grandmothers with similar stories from all around the world, took a land which until their return was an undeveloped desert that was changing hands between one disinterested empire to the next, and built an oasis; a modern state with thriving economy, state of the art agriculture, high tech companies, and universities that produce noble prize laureates.

Mr. President, you say your country is entitled to develop nuclear capabilities 'for peaceful purposes', just like any other country. But, Mr. President, your country is unlike any other country because its leader – you – is openly saying that Israel should be wiped off the map. It just happens to be that nukes are a very effective means to achieve such a goal, isn't it Mr. President? When I compound your public speeches with your adherence to the "Twelver" Islamic sect that believes that the divine savior, the Mahdi, will appear at the end of days, and when I take into account the contract you made your cabinet sign to pledge themselves to work for the return of the Mahdi, I get the strange idea that your nuclear reactor will not be utilized to provide cheap electricity to a country that holds the world's fourth largest oil reserves. I suspect that to you, Mutually Assured Destruction is not MAD at all. Quite the opposite Mr. President, you believe that doomsday should hasten the Mahdi's return.

Given this, Mr. President, please forgive me for not trusting your finger on the red button. Please realize that my country will do anything to prevent you from getting your nukes. Try to understand why I ask and expect the world's superpowers to help my country to stop you. You see, we did not survive the holocaust and built our home here just so we can wait for your Armageddon to materialize. Excuse us for not willing to partake, we had our share already.

Our prosperous little home (the size of the state of New Jersey) is in the midst of one of the world's most downtrodden areas, literally surrounded by hostile countries inhibited by hundreds of millions of Muslims. I know, Mr. President, that you believe that martyrdom is a holy duty and that your strength lies in your eagerness to sacrifice life for a good spot in the afterlife. But I want you to know that the reason we successfully win our wars against our adversaries while enjoying a democracy with a per capita GDP three times higher than Iran's (without any oil here) is that we Jews cherish life. However, make no mistake; we will defend our home with all that we have and to our last breath. We vowed, never again will Jews die helpless. And if we die, at least we die at home.

The true conflict is not about religions, and contrary to what you may believe Mr. President, it is certainly not between Iran and Israel, which are more than a thousand miles removed. Most of us Israelis have nothing against Islam or Arabs; if some of us hold a bias against either one, then it is a sad side effect of the ongoing conflict. This conflict is between us and the Palestinians and it is about land. Trust me Mr. President, when guaranteed true and viable peace and an end to terror, an overwhelming majority of Israelis are willing to make very deep and painful concessions to the Palestinians. They would like to see two states, a Palestinian and Israeli living in peace next to one another. Unfortunately, most Palestinians do not share this view; Influenced by dangerous rhetoric such as yours, Mr. President, they are being fooled into believing that the Jews are here temporarily and can be forced out of this land back to their "home". As long as Palestinians believe bloodshed and terror can get us out of here, they would never sign or uphold a true peace agreement; 'why share when we can bomb the Jews all the way back to Europe, and get everything?'

Mr. President, I would be very glad if this letter convinced you. However, it is far more important to me to convince our neighbors, the Palestinians, that we are here to stay and that this land is home - to both of us. Only then would they agree to settle for half of our shared land. Until then, we get suicide bombers and they get nothing.

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  • Public Discussion (50)
Lufbery

Nicely written letter. I like the historical context and passion that comes through. The history of the Jews is an intriguing story, especially in Christian antiquity which is where I believe (and there is much evidence) we saw the first seeds of antisemitism planted.

Not to dive into the history too much, but... Christianity as we know it was almost a Jewish faith. The first Christians were Jewish. Peter and other followers of Jesus started churches that kept the Jewish Law and saw Jesus as the Messiah, but did not see him as divine. They were called Ebionites and they were around before Jesus too. John the Baptist was believed to be an Ebionite - as was Jesus himself. However, Paul didn't agree and preached a religion that was easier for non-Jews to join (without being circumcised - which was required by Ebionites). Paul saw Jesus as divine and believed that converts didn't have to follow the Jewish Law.

There were others "sects" who were also popular - some more popular than Paul's followers. In the end, it was much of Paul's letters that were selected by Constantine and his bishops to be the official religion. Of note...the book of Matthew is believed to be written by an early Ebionite.

Back to the original article at hand. The Jews were a very proud group of people and never really accepted the Roman occupation. They were always on the verge of revolt and the Romans knew this and hated the Jews for not accepting their ways. The Jews did finally revolt and many/most were killed. Ironically, it was the new Christian religion that kept them in the forefront due to the need to have something old attached to this new religion. Yet, Constantine and his followers wanted to separate themselves as much as possible from the Jews, but not give up the credibility of that the Old Testament brought to their new religion. The rest is history...

  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Thu May 11, 2006 6:30 AM EDT
Yaakov

Lufbery - I find your claim that "it was the new Christian religion that kept (the Jews) in the forefront" just a bit presumptious.

Although the history of Christianity may begin with the Romans, for the Jewish people, the Roman empire was just one more nation (not the first, not the last) that sought to destroy the Jewish people. The Jews were at the forefront centuries before JC, and we will still be there when Chrisianity eventually goes the way of the Roman Empire.

  • 3 votes
#1.1 - Thu May 11, 2006 6:57 AM EDT
I SPY

I disagree with the first line of your article

Iranian President, Mr. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, you called on Jews in Israel to go back to their countries of origin.

as to what he really did mean. In an ideological sense I think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is absolutely right. If however he means this in a physical sense then he is clearly deluded. Yes you should go back to your farm in Austria and you should say to those people "We used to live here now we live in Israel come and visit us one day. Resettlement is should never be a preferred option

This leads me to my main Question " Is it possible to separate religion and politics's on this issue. I fear for the safety of Jew's outside the Israeli umbrella especially if the Government of Israel has taken it upon themselves to speak for all Jew's.

  • 3 votes
#1.2 - Thu May 11, 2006 7:31 AM EDT
TLV

I Spy, I highly doubt that he was referring to he was talking metaphysically. On what account do you interpret his words this way? In any event, we don't want to go back there. What should we say to them? "Thank you for killing six million of us, come and see how well we are doing in the Middle East? And by the way, thanks a lot for helping Iran get nukes".

As to your point question regarding the religious nature of the conflict:

We Israelis do not see the conflict as one among religions. Most of us have nothing against Islam or Arabs, and if some of us do have a bias against them it's a sad side effect of the ongoing war. This conflict is not between us and Iran, but between us and the Palestinians and it is about land, not religion. Most Israelis would like to see two states, one Palestinian and one Israeli living in peace next to each other. Trust me, if guaranteed true peace with no more terror and suicide bombers, the overwhelming majority of Israelis are willing to make very deep and painful concessions to the Palestinian. The problem is that the Palestinian leadership is not pragmatic. Influenced by leaders of the like of Ahmadi-Najad, they believe that the Jews can be forced out of the land back to "home" in Europe. This is why it is so important for me to explain in this letter that this will never happen; only after the Palestinians will realize that we are here to stay, they will be willing to settle for half of the land. Until then, they get nothing and we get bombers.

  • 2 votes
#1.3 - Thu May 11, 2006 8:42 AM EDT
I SPY

At the moment I feel that the state of Israel is under the first significant threat it has faced since it's inception. I do not wish to sit on the fence with the rest of the world and watch Tel-A-VIV become a radio active pile of ash. Twice the Palestinians have offered a very generous peace deal that has fallen through. And they only wanted 10% of the land. I cant see Israel lasting for ever under the current situation. There has to be some solution to the conflict.

  • 1 vote
#1.4 - Thu May 11, 2006 10:19 AM EDT
Yaakov

Can you please tell me what exactly were the "generous" peace deals that the Palestinians offered to Israel?

  • 1 vote
#1.5 - Thu May 11, 2006 10:39 AM EDT
I SPY

In 1988, the Palestine Liberation Organisation, led by Yasser Arafat, recognised Israel's right to exist and Israeli sovereignty over 78% of Palestine. It was an historic compromise. And in the early '90s, a breakthrough for peace seemed possible.
It was in a room in a Jerusalem hotel that the first direct talks between Israeli and Palestinian officials took place in 1991. These led to further meetings and an agreement in the Norwegian capital, Oslo, that set up an autonomous mini-state in the territories occupied by Israel since 1967.
For Yasser Arafat and his people, it was seen as a beginning. But the reality was different. What the majority of Palestinians got was a classic colonial fix. Arafat and his elite got the trappings and privileges of power, while the mass of the people got what one Israeli journalist called "the autonomy of a prisoner of war camp".
In July 2000, the two sides met in America to reach a final agreement. But among the issues they discussed was a profound disagreement about just how much land was on offer.
Israel's Prime Minister at the time, Ehud Barak, claimed he'd offered the Palestinians almost all the occupied territories back and said that Arafat had rejected this. In reality, the Israelis were expanding more and more illegal settlements on Palestinian land, even during the negotiations. Add to that the special access roads with their checkpoints, and the Palestinians say that all that was left was a group of colonies with their borders patrolled by military bases.
Israeli historian Ilan Pappe explains how, despite Barak's claims to the contrary, the proposal was deeply flawed:
"It's very important to understand that from a Palestinian point of view, they were asked - to sign? a document which did not relate even to one of the central issues for which they had been struggling for more than 100 years. They are left eventually with an offer of 10% of what used to be Palestine.
"The Israelis who dictated this offer in the summer of 2000 are not even talking about a proper state. We are talking? of a stateless state, I would call it. A Bantustan with no genuine sovereignty. With no independent foreign, economic or political policies, with no proper capital and at the mercy of the Israeli security services and Israeli policy."
Not only that, but there is now documented evidence that the Palestinians had made an extraordinary offer to the Israelis, conceding even more of their land. But this was not news at the time.

  • 5 votes
#1.6 - Thu May 11, 2006 11:00 AM EDT
TLV

I Spy, perhaps you can help me: how did you make the transition from the greenhouse to the regular site?
thanks..
TLV

  • 1 vote
#1.7 - Thu May 11, 2006 11:17 AM EDT
Yaakov

The PLO never recognized Israel's right to exist. They said and promised on numerous ocassions that they would. But they never did.

For all of Arafat's promising, signing and talking, he never ever intended to have peace with Israel. When he was presented with an offer of 90% of the West Bank and part of Jerusalem by Barak, he said no, since he never wanted anything less than everything.

The central issues for which they had been struggling for 100 years? What are they? The "Palestinian People" didn't even exist until the 1960's. The one issue that I am aware of that was not solved by this problem is the issue of ongoing Jewish settlement in Israel. Since none of the proposals incorporated an offer for all of the Jews to get up and go to Uganda, of course it did not address their issues.

"They are left eventually with an offer of 10% of what used to be Palestine." - This is ignoring history. Israel won all of its wars. Its enemies sought to destroy her time and time again. Each time Israel won. They lost. For all of their moaning about how much territory they are entitled to, this fact keeps getting lost in the mix.

And the offer that they were given was a move by Israel to give up on its hopes and issues for the past 2000 years.

Where is your evidence of extraordinary efforts by Palestinians to Israelis?

Talks, talks, talks. That was all it was.

  • 4 votes
#1.8 - Thu May 11, 2006 11:17 AM EDT
I SPY

I agree Yaakov talks was all it was. It was also a missed opportunity even if talks go nowhere they are better than bullets.

  • 2 votes
#1.9 - Thu May 11, 2006 11:51 AM EDT
I SPY

TLV

I Spy, perhaps you can help me: how did you make the transition from the greenhouse to the regular site? thanks.. TLV
0
!
#1.7

Yeah I kinda thought that Quote was pretty greenhousie too when I posted it.

  • 1 vote
#1.10 - Thu May 11, 2006 12:31 PM EDT
TLV

LOL, I spy wasn't being sarcastic. I am new here and still in the greenhouse, I saw that you are in the regular newsvine and hoped that maybe you could explain to me how you made the transition.

  • 1 vote
#1.11 - Thu May 11, 2006 12:47 PM EDT
I SPY

I think its automatic based on your % score and time. If no one reports you for advertising, Inacurate or inflamitory. I look forward to your joining I have enjoyed these Israel discussions immensely and have been eager to get Israeli's on newsvine.

  • 1 vote
#1.12 - Thu May 11, 2006 12:53 PM EDT
TLV

thanks ispy!

  • 3 votes
#1.13 - Thu May 11, 2006 1:23 PM EDT
Reply
TLV

Yaakov, I certainly don't hope that Christianity will go the way of the Roman Empire. I believe that Jews and Christians can live in peace and that they are natural allies these days.

  • 2 votes
Reply#2 - Thu May 11, 2006 7:25 AM EDT
simonesq

This is a wonderful letter. I wish people who use "Zionist" as a dirty word would read personal accounts like this to get a better understanding what a Jewish homeland is really about.

But: if Ahmadinejad read this, I think I know what his reaction would be. He would say that the people of "undeveloped" and "downtrodden" Palestine experienced something similar to your grandfather's unfair eviction. "What about their homeland?" he would say.

This piece will be moving for Israel's allies, but if you really want to persuade Israel's critics, you need to address the root of their criticisms.

  • 4 votes
Reply#3 - Thu May 11, 2006 7:47 AM EDT
TLV

Good point simonesq. but we need to leave some stuff for my next column.

    Reply#4 - Thu May 11, 2006 8:20 AM EDT
    TLV

    Simonesq had a good point. I revised the column please check it out. waiting for your comments.

    TLV

    • 1 vote
    Reply#5 - Thu May 11, 2006 10:52 AM EDT
    Michael Reneissance

    This article does not do anything really, because most people participating in the war can tell a similar sob story. Get over it! I have had several war casualties from both sides of my family, so this doesn't impress me and it certainly won't impress Ahmadi-whatever. This guy is smart and serious and there is a lot of truth to what he says. I'm not sure we need to go as far as removing people from their homes, but to every effect there is or was a cause. I don't think Arabs hate Jews or anybody else just for the sake of hating. One must first question oneself when faced with such widespread, unrelenting hate over the centuries. In other words, I think there is a cause for this desire to remove Jews from their "homes". Just a suggestion.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#6 - Thu May 11, 2006 3:00 PM EDT
    Lufbery

    Wow. I think you are reading too much into the article. It shows another side, the side of the Jews in this Iran issue. There are always multiple sides and multiple views with these conflicts. It think TLV did this letter with class and it was very interesting and well written.

    With regard to hating for the sake of hating. I think you need to study some history my friend, antisemitism was clearly an agenda for certain groups. I am not going to spend time explaining, but I suggest you do some reading instead of writing. Understand the past so that you can understand the future. Good luck.

    • 5 votes
    #6.1 - Thu May 11, 2006 4:42 PM EDT
    Michael Reneissance

    Then one must examine why this agenda emerged, not my knowledge of history. Good luck examining!

      #6.2 - Thu May 11, 2006 4:56 PM EDT
      Dennis M Wright

      You go examine Michael. Let me know what you find.

      • 1 vote
      #6.3 - Thu May 11, 2006 5:04 PM EDT
      Reply
      TLV

      So you are basically saying that antisemitism its the Jews' fault.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#7 - Thu May 11, 2006 4:10 PM EDT
      Michael Reneissance

      Logically, if there's a widespread distaste for any individual or group it's not erroneous to look within this individual or group to find the reasons for this hate. I'm not saying that it's entirely their fault, but to a certain extent, yes. Similarly, people in most of the world outside of the US dislike Americans. Is this the fault of, for example, the Swiss, Brazilians or Australians? I don't think so. The fault lies with the United States. If you want to find the solution look at the problem, not around it.

        #7.1 - Thu May 11, 2006 4:34 PM EDT
        Dennis M Wright

        Well then what have the Jews done to make them deserving of antisemitism?

        • 1 vote
        #7.2 - Thu May 11, 2006 5:53 PM EDT
        TLV

        Michael, we Jews have a land dispute with the Palestinians. You are going off topic to the unproductive avenues of 'whose religion is right or wrong' and 'which race deserves what treatment'. This debate is arguably suitable for a doctoral dissertation in some obscure university, but is counterproductive if one is to find a solution to the problem at hand. We need pragmatic solutions; saying that all Jews should go back to Europe is not a pragmatic approach because it is not going to happen (read my letter again..). Saying that the Jews will not go to Europe but in theory should go there is even more ridiculous.

        If you do have a realistic suggestion how to solve this problem I would be interested to read your comment.

        • 4 votes
        #7.3 - Thu May 11, 2006 6:35 PM EDT
        ajzzz

        People can irrationally hate anything, a lot of it comes from ignorance. People can be xenophobic, Jewish people are not native in Europe, but the massive ammount of European Jews weren't native in the Middle-East either. Cultures don't like this massive migration, fear, envy, are some of the things they feel. In Rwanda one ethnicity was favoured for another, so there was envy. Sometimes its a clash of cultures, many Muslims in Europe are finding it difficult to adapt.

        • 2 votes
        #7.4 - Thu May 11, 2006 8:48 PM EDT
        Matt Kennedy

        Logically, if there's a widespread distaste for any individual or group it's not erroneous to look within this individual or group to find the reasons for this hate

        I think if logic were involved in any part of the process, there would have never been a Jewish Holocaust during World War II. Human emotions and rationalizations aren't necessarily logical, and it's pointless to try to explain them using logic.

        • 4 votes
        #7.5 - Thu May 11, 2006 11:38 PM EDT
        Michael Reneissance

        To all and TLV...my initial comment was not meant to be offensive for anybody. I'm not suggesting that any resettlement should take place. This is ridiculous to even consider. What I merely suggested is that among all of these negative viewpoints of each other, I believe opposites can find common ground. In order to find the source of hate, we must be able to evaluate ourselves and find reasons why some people may hate us, if indeed the feelings have escalated to this level. My suggestion is for both parties to look within themselves for a solution. Is this a total solution? Not by any means. There are many other forces at hand, but I feel that knowing the source of distaste will go a long way to aid the solution. To this effect, I believe that each party must undoubtedly try to look for common features and eliminate differences. In other words, ask the question "Why do these people hate me?" instead of "They hate me, so why shouldn't I hate them?" This is my productive, pragmatic avenue.

          #7.6 - Mon May 15, 2006 10:42 AM EDT
          Reply
          TLV

          Much like blaming a rape victim with what happened to her because she asked for it.
          You could be a great judge in South Africa

          Actually, in /reveriee.newsvine.com/_news/2006/01/18/62086-iran-to-hang-teenage-girl-attacked-by-rapists">too">Iran too.

            Reply#8 - Thu May 11, 2006 4:44 PM EDT
            Michael Reneissance

            This is a ridiculous comparison. If you follow my logic correctly, then what I would suggest in the case of rape is that we should not attempt to fix some other crime, like corruption, for example. We should instead focus on why rapes happen and address that issue.

              #8.1 - Thu May 11, 2006 4:51 PM EDT
              TLV

              Rapes, like many other crimes, happen because someone evil forcefully takes something he was not allowed to.

              • 1 vote
              #8.2 - Thu May 11, 2006 4:55 PM EDT
              Michael Reneissance

              In case of rape, "evil" is not aimed at only one individual, anybody may become a victim of such a heinous crime. Your argument would work if every rapist was targeting the same victim.

                #8.3 - Thu May 11, 2006 5:00 PM EDT
                TLV

                Have you seen this movie (forgot its name) about a private exclusive boarding school, where the rich bullies are picking on the this kid, who comes from a poor family and his there on a scholarship? They couldn't stand him because he came from a poor family and yet was the smartest student in class. His top grades reflected bad on them.

                  #8.4 - Thu May 11, 2006 5:23 PM EDT
                  Michael Reneissance

                  So now you claim that all jews are the smartest people? Typical

                    #8.5 - Mon May 15, 2006 10:19 AM EDT
                    Michael Reneissance

                    Regarding your comment as a whole, I certainly would try to side with the poor kid.

                      #8.6 - Mon May 15, 2006 10:20 AM EDT
                      JalJones

                      Rapes, like many other crimes, happen because someone evil forcefully takes something
                      he was not allowed to.

                      Like taking people's land, displacing 1M people and never allowing them the right to return home. I thought Jews were supposed to be humble but Yakovv epitomizes arrogance with his comments about Christianity going the way of the Roman empire and We won the wars, we won the wars. If you had won the wars there wouldn't be suicide bombings today. The war is continuing.

                        #8.7 - Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:33 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        Michael PukinDeleted
                        insert_name_here

                        Doesn't look like youre still in the Greenhouse. Congrats on that, and on a great article. Welcome to the non-greenhouse part of Newsvine and my watchlist.

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#10 - Thu May 11, 2006 9:02 PM EDT
                        TLV

                        Thanks insert_name_here, I am glad that you enjoyed reading my first article ever. Hopefully, you'll like my next essays as well.
                        -TLV

                          Reply#11 - Thu May 11, 2006 10:01 PM EDT
                          Justin Martinez

                          Our prosperous little home (the size of the state of New Jersey) is in the midst of one of the world's most downtrodden areas, literally surrounded by hostile countries inhibited by hundreds of millions of Muslims. I know, Mr. President, that you believe that martyrdom is a holy duty and that your strength lies in your eagerness to sacrifice life for a good spot in the afterlife. But I want you to know that the reason we successfully win our wars against our adversaries while enjoying a democracy with a per capita GDP three times higher than Iran's (without any oil here) is that we Jews cherish life. However, make no mistake; we will defend our home with all that we have and to our last breath. We vowed, never again will Jews die helpless. And if we die, at least we die at home.

                          The United States is backing Israel. That's why they win their wars.

                          • 1 vote
                          Reply#12 - Fri May 12, 2006 12:20 AM EDT
                          TLV

                          Justin, you are correct in your statement that the United States is backing Israel. The first thing I want to say about it is 'God Bless America'. The second point is that traditionally in the Middle East, the US was backing up Israel while the Soviet Union (remember?) was backing up the Arab bloc. Since the USSR has dissolved, China and Russia have grown into the vacuum that was left. They are irresponsible enough to help the Iranian build their reactor.

                          And by the way, you'd be surprise but up until 1967, Israel's chief weapon supplier was France!

                            Reply#13 - Fri May 12, 2006 12:45 AM EDT
                            Michael Reneissance

                            They are irresponsible enough to help the Iranian build their reactor.

                            This is a double standard. What gives one party the right to have such a weapon over another?

                              #13.1 - Mon May 15, 2006 10:45 AM EDT
                              Michael Reneissance

                              In only meant the first line above as a quote. The second line is my comment...sorry.

                                #13.2 - Mon May 15, 2006 10:46 AM EDT
                                Reply
                                charlesfrith

                                and my grandfather's grandfather was born in Israel

                                Israel probably was not around at the time of the writers' great great grandfather. A small point but in some ways crucial to the discussion.

                                  Reply#14 - Sat May 13, 2006 11:26 PM EDT
                                  evano

                                  The historical land of Israel has been around for several thousand years. While his grandfather's grandfather was not born in the modern political State of Israel, he was still born in the Land of Israel. Jacob was given the name "Israel" meaning "he who wrestled with God," and the twelve tribes founded by Jacob's twelve sons collectively referred to themselves as the Children of Israel. After escaping bondage in Egypt, they settled in an area which took its name from the people who inhabited it: the Land of Israel. Just because there is no political state there, doesn't mean the land doesn't have a name. The Polish people didn't cease to exist when their land was divided up between Austria, Russia and Prussia, and the Kurds today live in Kurdistan, which appears on no official map, but consists of parts of Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #14.1 - Sun May 14, 2006 2:31 AM EDT
                                  Lufbery

                                  I don't know all the history here, so forgive me if I don't get it exactly right. Palestine was a territory that traded hands many times through history. It was also never a "political independent state" - but part of Arab, Turkish, Roman territories. However, in the early 20th Century Palestine territory almost became a "political state" when the other Arab territories did - but it was left alone by the British for Jewish immigration.

                                  Anyway, a large scale Jewish immigration started to populate the area in early 20th Century (20s) and just before WWII and during the war the numbers increased dramatically.

                                  So, evano's point is accurate. Historically, the territory that is now called Israel was occupied by Jews for a long time and I would venture to say throughout the history of Jews.

                                  Please understand this is a historical understanding of this area of land. I am not politically motivated or trying to be bias - but just stating my "understanding" of the political landscape of this area of land. It is also the 50,000 foot view as I believe the early 20th Century politics were complex. Most absolutely, the Palestine Territory was called Palestine in ancient history and there is also a complex history of wars and politics around this area through history. My only point is that Jewish settlement has been there a long time along with other tribes and peoples through history, so this author's great great grandfather could have easily been born there.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #14.2 - Sun May 14, 2006 8:38 AM EDT
                                  Yaakov

                                  It was also never a "political independent state" - but part of Arab, Turkish, Roman territories.

                                  Wrong. It was a Jewish politically independent state a couple of times before the Romans came to town. Think First and Second temples, Saul, David, Solomon. Biblical times.

                                    #14.3 - Sun May 14, 2006 11:01 AM EDT
                                    TLV

                                    My great great grandfather was born in an Ottoman Empire's colony referred to as "The Land of Israel" or Palestine. Jews were living there throughout the time of the Diaspora. It's not as if Jews woke up one bright day in the 19th century and decided: "hello Zionism, now we want to go to Israel." The passion to go to the Land of Israel was always there. In fact, from my grandfather's mother's side we have been in Israel for more than 10 generations. You are right in your assertion that at the time the state of Israel was not born yet. Unfortunately, we only got our independence in 1948. The British, who conquered the land from the Ottomans, closed the gates for Jewish immigration prior to and during WW2. Since no one else would accept the Jews from Europe they had nowhere to escape to. Check out the story of the St. Louis.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #14.4 - Sun May 14, 2006 6:51 PM EDT
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